the fine line between helping and "coddling"
Where's the line between the two. Is letting a student take a quiz several times until he/she passes help the student to learn or is that "coddling".
Hi Mike ... I share your concern about the fine line between helping and coddling students. I don't see retaking quizzes as being a bad thing, because as you point out, there is a varies and diverse learning curve involved with our students and re-taking a quiz is definitely uselful for some students. Personally, I draw the line at retakes on quizzes ... not allowed for major exams. I also have a fairly liberal homework policy, allowing my students a generous grace period in which to turn in their assignments, pegging homework to a substantial portion of their overall grade. I find this encourages them to do the work, even if it is only eventually! I am relatively new to this teaching gig, but I am getting pretty good results so far. Bottom line, I guess, is doing what is necessary to make the student successful in school, and along the way, hopefully we can ween them off the support system we build for them in class. Hope my thoughts are helpful to you.
Regards,
John
Hi Mike,
The answer to this question depends upon the reason for having the student take the test over and over. In the process is learning occurring? Is progress being made or is the student taking the same test over and over and getting better scores through memory of the items. If that is the answer then it is not fair to the student nor the career area. Meaning the student has to know the content and have the skills or they will not be successful in the future. If they have problems with time and focus due to pressure or cognitive processin issues then that is different. Also, different versions of the test can be given to make sure content is being tested.
There needs to be a reason for taking the test over and over as well. Rationale has to be established or time is being wasted by having the student take the test over and over.
Am interested in your comments about this most important topic.
Thanks.
Gary
For me, I do not let them take quizzes over again. Like you mentioned, it would be unfair to the students that where prepared the first time. So, I don't think tests should be given again....unless.....there has been a break down of the learning process. An example would be that the highest grade was a 70. Then you would need to re-lecture using difference learn modes or teaching statigies to better communicate the topic. Then re-test them.
Projects I do different. Since doing projects are where some of the real learning proceses occur, I let them re-do projects. Like all hands-on activities, most people do it better on the second try. One learns from mistakes. I want them to do it until they get good at it.
But-- to be fair again to the people who do a good project on the first try, we average the grades. So that if one made a 70 on the original, and did it again and made a 100. The final grade for that project would be an 80.
Students respond pretty well to this system. Those that really don't need to do it again, don't usually ask, and the students that should do it again, usually ask to. If the student makes below a 70.... I require that they do a re-do.
I agree with you Mike. I've found that my students don't prepare if they know they can retake it over again. At one time, I prepared 2 versions of each quiz but that didn't resolve the issue either.
Hands on Labs and projects are different with a different learning objective.
It's always up to the instructor to decide which students need additional tutoring/ assistance because of their learning ability.
What is the student learning by retaking a quiz several times? I feel they learn the quiz not the content. If there is a good solution I haven't found one.
Hi Mike,
You make a number of excellent points. Testing student knowledge is always a tricky endeavor at best. The key is to develop the best method of assessing knowlege and then having policies that support that effort.
You explained your method very well.
Gary
Gary chimes a note with me in that testing one's knowledge is a tricky thing. The test environment is not necessarily the practical use environment. When a student scores poorly I try to find out why. Some fess up and say they didn't study where others are lousy at pen and paper. So I give them an aural or hands on test, as they prefer.
In training kids in a vocation, for me, it is better that they know how to do and that they can do. How I squeeze that information out of them is the hard part. This is why I stress knowing more than one way to do any one thing. One way may ring true with one student where another method may be preferred by the next. As long as the final result is the same.
Though, this is difficult when it comes to hard facts, which are immutable. Some stuff you JUST HAVE TO KNOW. I don't want my surgeon confused between a scalpel and an Exacto knife.
Hi Bradford,
Thank you for the comments. You make a number of very good points.
Gary
I agree that letting them take a quiz more than once will only teach them the quiz.
You may consider this approach.
I have the quizzes count for a small part of the overall grade. The bulk of the grade comes from their projects. This does two things: One, it eases the minds of the students who are fearful of taking quizzes and tests. Two, I can use the quiz as a learning tool. What I do is actually let the students grade their own quiz. (Our class size is usually only 8 - 12 so this may not work with a larger class.) We go down the line and I have the students answer and discuss each question. I have them take notes on the quiz on any question they missed. I collect them to check their work and record the grades. I return the quizzes the next day so they can put it in their binder to use a study guide. We have 4 quizzes and a final test. The final test doesn't have the same questions as the quizzes, but similar. If a topic is on a quiz, they can bet it will be on the final. The students know if they understand a topic well enough to get it right on the quiz, they will be OK for the final. If they messed up on the quiz, it doesn't count against their grade appreciably and they now have extra notes over what they missed.
Hi Perry,
Thank you for the excellent discussion of how you handle evaluation of your students. The variety that you offer gives different types of learners different ways of showing what they have learned. This is very important so the students don't become discouraged but yet are being fairly assessed on the skills they have developed.
Gary
Reading these replies...I think I am a stickler! I do not believe in allowing students to retake quizzes, exams, or even hand in late assignments! I used to allow homework late and lower it one grade per day late, but found that ineffective. I teach Paralegal studies so I feel it is not helping students who wish to become paralegals to think that deadlines can pass and there are not repercussions. In the legal world where we are bound by the clock, court appearances, and filing deadlines I think it best students learn that real life expectation in school. I do however, give extra credit assignments where they can "make up" for bad days, tardiness or just plain LIFE!
I do explain to the students in the beginning of the class that these are my expectations and the reason behind it. They do seem to get it and for the most part hand stuff in on time.
Hi Vipan,
I don't think you are a stickler at all. You are reflecting the requirements of the career in which these students will soon enter. I believe strongly in setting industrial/business standards in training programs so the adjustment from classroom to the work world will not be a tremendous shock.
You do have some relief for students build into your policy for circumstances beyond their control. This is needed as well.
You are on the right track keep up the good work.
Gary
At the beginning of starting a new class, I tell
my students that they may take a test twice. I don't offer it more than twice, because it seems to
enable the students to study less. It also makes it unfair to other students, who may have only had to take it once, but recieved 76% as a grade. Another student comes along and takes the test for the third time and receives 90% which they are then given the maximum of 80% grade. This is still more than the student who studied, and took the test and scored 76%, but passed the first time around. This seems to be working because to date, no student has ever taken a test twice and flunked.
Hi Pam,
I commend you on your policy. This is a trap that many teachers fall into. There needs to be incentives for doing a good job the first time with options of second chances if needed. It seems that you have this covered.
Gary
Personally, I have found it successful... but, I had a certain methodology. I set it up so it flowed like this...
1) Homework ((chapter review))
2) Lecture/Discussion
3) Quiz
-- This time was primarily to point out problem areas--
4) Simulated Lab Exercise
5) Quiz Retake (if they want)
6) Honors Credit ((like the simulated lab... only a bit more difficult and to the point of the problem areas))
7) Quiz Retake (if they want)
8) One-on-one review with instructor
9) Quiz retake
This would allow for 4 attempts at a given quiz if the student needed it. They could not "retake" the quiz until the assignment preceeding it in the flow was completed. This folded the quiz into the lesson as a learning tool rather than the "T" word that caused so much anxiety. ((TEST))
One last point... during the designated class and lab times, the average student would only have time to complete the first 4 items in this list. From five on would have to be completed on their own time. Yes, I know... I have been accused of being evil before. But, this methodology seemed to me to be rewarding to the ones willing to put out the extra effort, without coddeling... and anyone "playing the system" had to be willing to pay the fee. Not saying it is perfect... but it has worked so far with good results in the end game... cert tests and real world application.
Hi Kevin,
You offer a number of different strategies for getting students through the course requirements.
I commend you for the feedback process that you have developed so the students know what is required and how hard they have to work get through the course successfully.
Gary
I am of the same mind that you are on this subject. If the course expectations and assignments are laid out ahead of time, there is no reason that students should not be prepared with assignments or for exams. I teach career management skills at a culinary institute, so our basic goal is to prepare our students for the working world...in which there aren't extension to deadlines and chances to "redo" missed days of work. Students are treated as adults, and they learn quickly that we are not here to hold their hands and walk them through school. Of couse, everyone does mess up at one point or another, and sometimes circumstances arise where I need to be lenient.
Coddling can come from the instructor feeling he or she may not have given enough information for the students advancment in the class. By giving the the class objectives in a way the student/s could understand is a way not to eliminate the possible coddling.
I will let students take a quiz again, but really I think I do this more for the self-esteem and grade of the student than helping the student learn more. After the class takes a quiz, We go over every question and discuss why the answer is what it is AND why it is not the ones that it is not. This helps the students to start to think thru questions and possibilities. With a lot of my students, the higher their self-esteem goes the higher their grades start to go. Once they see they can do it they start to believe in themselves and then they do better. I do not like to coddle, in the "real world" most bosses are not going to do that. Sometimes we set the students up to fail at a job, by helping them thru school.
