native English speaker as ELL student
There is another aspect of working with language/writing issues that, working in an urban environment as I do, I encounter on a regular basis: the student who is a native English speaker, but whose spoken language is so far removed from academic, business, (so-called) proper English, that they can, for practical purposes, be considered an English as a Learning Language student.
It could be persuasively argued that, in order to succeed in an academic setting and in (most) professional environments, they will need to learn the English language anew.
The instructor must impart unto them the professional jargon and technical terms of the profession they teach, certainly.
But is it the job of, say, a foundation-level visual communication instructor to get the student to change their very speech patterns, verb conjugations, inflections, and remove much of the slang and many of the idioms that, while common in the sub-culture from which they hail, will very likely impede communication with future clients, vendors, employers and co-workers?
Ah, it is a challenge - we have to teach the skills, allow time for practice and hopefully mastery, but also realize that some adult learners are deficient in other areas of preparation, language and vocabulary. There is barely enough time to introduce the discipline-specific skills and applications not to mention other areas of deficit.
Solution? I'm not sure there is one, definitively, and in all honesty. I believe though we just simply have to try our best by providing opportunities, whenever possible, for students to practice critical as well as technical skills. It is impossible for us in such a short time frame to reconfigure a student's articulation, and quite frankly I don't have the expertise to do so or even know if it's a good idea, but we can lead by example in our own articulation, address language that is inappropriate in the workplace and provide vocabulary resources for our different subject areas.
Thanks again Scott for your excellent observations!
Jay
ED106 Facilitator
It's the job of the instructor to show why it would be worthwhile to the student to make all those fundamental changes--to become essentially bilingual. I had many black students from Detroit, for example, who spoke Ebonics. After several weeks in class, they began to see that Ebonics would not get them the jobs they truly wanted. That realization alone provided the motivation they needed to make changes.
Dr. Kendra Gaines
I address this problem daily in my composition and humanities courses. While I do believe that there are certain students who are genuinely baffled by the fact that there speech and/or writing is not "English". However, most of my students understand that the way they talk or write is unprofessional. And I believe that many of them want to be better.
When a student writes me an email riddled with poor grammatical mistakes I will tell them I can’t read it until they learn to use proper English. Most students never repeat the mistake again. In my experience, setting and explaining high expectations and reinforcing proper language skills are more effective than anything else I have tried.
Erin, please forgive me--but if you're going to demand the best from your students, you must model the best. Here's your "sentence":
"While I do believe that there are certain students who are genuinely baffled by the fact that there speech and/or writing is not 'English'."
First of all, that is a sentence fragment, not a complete sentence. You begin with "while" which is a conjunction--only you do not conjoin to anything! Second, you wrote "there speech," and the correct spelling is "their speech."
So, to demand and expect good English, you must first practice it yourself.
Again, please forgive me for pointing out these errors to you.
Dr. Kendra Gaines
Dr. Gaines,
Thank you for pointing out my errors to anyone who reads my post. At the time I wrote that message, I was in the middle of several different projects all happening at once. Several students were asking me questions, faculty were asking for input, and I was answering emails from various sources. I probably was stuttering my way through the information and was not paying close attention to what I was writing. I seem to have mashed two thoughts together on accident. Obviously this offended you. For that, I do appologize.
Your response was harsh. It seems that I made mistakes in ONE sentence, and this seems to bother you immensely (enough so that you must point it out to everyone here). Perhaps I can point out your misuse of punctuation. I found once of your sentences to contain unequal/incorrect punctuation. I won't bother pointing out which sentence it was because I happen to think that kind of thing is rude.
This forum should be about supporting each other, not demeaning our colleagues.
Erin,
For some reason I suspected that you would react that way--and I very nearly did not post anything to you. However, here we are.
Your response made me sad. First you spilled out lots of excuses. Then you attacked me and belittled me. Then you essentially said that all we can say to one another is compliments.
If that is true, then what exactly is the point of a discussion?
I'm also sorry you did not help me with my punctuation when you claimed that you could.
I will vanish now into the haze, and leave you to get on with your instruction. Again, forgive me for trying to help.
Dr. KG
This is a very good point. I taught a group of students who used the language of their sociolinguistic community that included slang, vulgar expressions, and "non-standard" English. We talked about how professional language was different from the language they would used in their own community. From my work in sociolinguistics, I know that students have the ability to "code switch" to professional English. Many refuse to do it because it seems to attack their sense of linguistic identity. I made the point that they may choose to speak as they please, but the people who get the good jobs will code switch.
Absolutely right! If they want the job, they must make some accommodation!
Dr. Gaines,
I wanted to wait until after the weekend to respond to this post because I still feel hurt by the whole situation. I hate this whole “one-upsmanship” thing we are doing. Regardless of your response, this will be my final post on the matter.
I did explain why I posted that horrible sentence, but I was not trying to make excuses. I readily accepted the blame (which is the opposite of making excuses in my experience). I was sloppy, lazy, and distracted. It was entirely my fault. I am embarrassed that I “wrote” that sentence.
If you knew I would get defensive about this, why even post it? What person would not be upset with that reply? You felt the need to break down parts of speech to someone with graduate level grammar courses under her belt! It seemed like that post was less about "help" and more about showing off. I showed the post to several of my colleagues, and all of them wondered why you would feel the need to point out my mistake to everyone. Many of them felt they would also react defensively to such a post. Perhaps I did lash out at you a bit, but when I did so, I felt that you were the one who lashed out first. The tone of your post was not supportive, regardless of if you meant it to be or not.
In my humble opinion, the point of discussion is NOT my grammar mistake. The point of discussion is helping the students. Breaking down grammatical errors is not helping anyone in here be a better teacher, and neither is focusing on my mistake instead of my message.
I really want to move on from this moment and put the whole messy ordeal behind me. I hope you will oblige.
Hi Janet, this is an excellent point! Students certainly have a choice in the language they use; no one would suggest that a student deny heritage or cultural background, but when it's used as an excuse for slang language, it doesn't hold water.
Our students must understand, and many of them aleady do, that to rise in the working world, one has to adapt accordingly.
Thanks for your comments,
Jay Hollowell
ED106 Facilitator
I agree. All past now. Thank you for your reply.
I have also encountered this numerous times while teaching. It is extremely difficult for the students to recieve and comprehend large quantities of information in a short amount of time. I teach in a community which is primarily Spanish-speaking and English is the second language. This is my #1 difficulty in the classroom!
Absolutely true. This can be a great setback in the classroom. We all have to agree on a single language whatever the subject (in my case literature) and practice proper usage of that language. My comment could trigger something of a debate on the subject of what language is "the" proper language for use at the college level in the US, but that "proper" language of instruction tends to be English, as it still remains outside of an academic setting at large. (There are some industries in which this is no longer true.)
A frustrating thing I've come across, as a pretty new instructor, is when I ask for "Professional Presentations" where they are to use the proper terminology that the industry expects...and it feels like a high school presentation. The work itself may be great but I'm not hearing the terms and vocabulary that they are clearly exhibiting in their projects.
