Thanks Karen, the insight from areas other than where I teach is indeed helpful, also nice to know I'm not alone :) One thing I didn't mention, other than 2012, I've been an online student myself since 2002, some degrees, but quite a bit just because I love the learning process in all forms and one should never stop learning. I bring this up and try to relate to my students in that aspect, but it's a slippery slope and one has to maintain that even though I'm also a student and can understand, in THIS case, I am the instructor. Funny related item, my friend's girlfriend is working on a degree, constant comments on Facebook and just about anytime words are coming out of her mouth about how she has algebra homework and how she hates it and will fail. I've offered her help at least a hundred times, she always passes on the offer and continues to complain. Perhaps more than just a feeling of overwhelmed, perhaps some of our students believe that's how they're supposed to feel? Kurt "Trip" Bauer